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Amy Hutto: Welcome to So...

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Amy Hutto: Tell Me What You Do.

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Amy Hutto: I'm Amy Hutto, a productivity coach who takes the friction out of work for independent small business owners.

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Amy Hutto: If we talked, you'd know instantly that what I love most is learning all about other people's work.

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Amy Hutto: So join me as we talk to a different small business owner, entrepreneur, nonprofit leader or creative each week, so they can tell me and you what they do.

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Abiel Banjo: Thank you.

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Amy Hutto: This podcast represents the opinions of the speakers and guests to the show.

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Amy Hutto: The content should not be taken as advice, medical or otherwise.

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Amy Hutto: The content here is for informational purposes only.

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Amy Hutto: Because each person is so unique, please consult a healthcare professional for any medical questions.

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Amy Hutto: Hi guys, thanks for joining me.

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Abiel Banjo: Thank you for having me.

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Amy Hutto: Do you wanna introduce yourselves?

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Shone Williams: Hi, I'm Shone Williams.

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Shone Williams: I am in partnership with three of us, myself, Dr.

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Shone Williams: Elizabeth Jackson and Abiel.

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Shone Williams: We are in partnership with Divergent CRO.

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Shone Williams: And I guess the title would be Founders of Divergent CRO.

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Abiel Banjo: As she rightfully mentioned, my name is Abiel Obanjo.

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Abiel Banjo: I have been privileged to join this wonderful women in finding Divergent CRO as a team.

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Abiel Banjo: We are all partners.

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Abiel Banjo: We bet to be the different in the research industry.

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Abiel Banjo: Being able to come together on that common ground was something that really captivated our interest in starting our own company.

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Abiel Banjo: And now we are owners of our own company and we look forward to educating more people in clinical research and bringing in people of color, people that are less privileged of having the information exposed to them about clinical research.

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Abiel Banjo: We are looking forward to being able to be a blessing to them as well.

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Amy Hutto: So for my audience who may not be familiar with, unless you've had a family member or a career in that space, can you give me a brief explanation?

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Amy Hutto: What's clinical research?

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Abiel Banjo: Well, you're talking about clinical research, right?

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Abiel Banjo: It's the behind-the-scene work that occurs before any drug.

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Abiel Banjo: Before you can actually call a drug a drug, it's called investigational product.

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Abiel Banjo: And it needs to go through a thorough screening process from preclinical to clinical, different phases before it comes to a human trial, where people actually volunteer and go through the process of helping us to collect accurate data.

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Abiel Banjo: It's all about patient safety and data integrity, because whenever we submit to the FDA, the data needs to have integrity, and the drug needs to prove efficacy, that it is actually going to do what it was set out to do.

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Abiel Banjo: As a clinical research associate, I look at myself like a regulatory police, making sure you are doing the right thing, according to the protocol that is given by the sponsors, usually the pharmaceutical or biotech, and according to FDA guidelines.

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Abiel Banjo: But I'm pretty sure Shone can add more to that, because she has extensive knowledge as it relates to oncology, actually.

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Shone Williams: For me, I define clinical research as a participation for volunteers who have a particular disease, and we will use oncology as the base, and that sometimes there's no treatment for it at this time.

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Shone Williams: So the sponsors will say, well, we are developing a treatment, and if you're interested in extending your life quality as where is your life expectancy, possibly you can come and join this clinical trial.

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Shone Williams: And as a senior clinical research associate, I view myself kind of like the nurse of biotech.

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Shone Williams: So you have like the nurse in the hospital, I'm like the nurse in clinical trials.

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Shone Williams: And for Divergent CRO, we believe in ethical leadership, transparency and number one, safety of the patients.

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Shone Williams: So with clinical trials, if a person goes in with a question about their issues with an oncology issue, then they'll participate in the clinical trial and see if we can actually help overall, have them in ease and give them the medication that they need and then take that data, calculate it, go through a whole series of testing of that data and then be able to market the drug long-term.

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Shone Williams: Nowadays, things are rapidly being developed.

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Shone Williams: But back in the day, it used to take between seven and ten years to get something through.

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Shone Williams: With clinical research and just the patients themselves, they are banking on that they can have this, help them and their families.

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Amy Hutto: Today happens to be the ten-year anniversary of the day my own son was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes.

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Amy Hutto: And when he came home from the hospital, we came home with a vial of insulin and a bag of needles.

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Amy Hutto: And today he uses an insulin pump that not only is only about three inches wide, but attaches like a sticker.

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Amy Hutto: And it's just night and day where we were ten years ago.

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Amy Hutto: So all of that's only possible because of clinical trials.

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Amy Hutto: So I can't wait to hear more about the work that both of you do.

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Amy Hutto: So tell me how you spend your days.

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Amy Hutto: What do you do each day as clinical researchers?

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Abiel Banjo: So I'll give you a scope because I'm working from the managerial perspective.

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Abiel Banjo: So as a local trial manager, I work the elderly, meaning my work or my scope includes different countries.

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Abiel Banjo: I may have local team members in this specific country.

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Abiel Banjo: So I may work with them to get approvals that I needed.

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Abiel Banjo: I'm currently working in what we call study startup phases.

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Abiel Banjo: That's when we need certain approvals, budgets and contracts.

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Abiel Banjo: The first step is ability.

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Abiel Banjo: Feasibility means does that doctor have the staff, the knowledge, the equipment needed to properly facilitate the study and successfully execute it?

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Abiel Banjo: We're not usually just looking first, can you provide the patient?

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Abiel Banjo: Usually when we target a site or a doctor, it means that therapeutic area is something that you study.

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Abiel Banjo: So we know that you have that potential database.

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Abiel Banjo: So I work with the site first to complete the feasibility.

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Abiel Banjo: I have to draft a report of their experience using their CV, medical licenses and things like that.

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Abiel Banjo: Once that is approved, we do what is called due diligence.

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Abiel Banjo: That's to check if FDA has signed off of this doctor and banned them from doing research ever.

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Abiel Banjo: I need to confirm that.

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Abiel Banjo: So once that is confirmed, we move to the phase of budgeting and contract.

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Abiel Banjo: So we have to negotiate between...

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Abiel Banjo: We are the middleman.

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Abiel Banjo: So we negotiate between the sponsor and the clinics.

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Abiel Banjo: So we are in the middle.

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Abiel Banjo: We're negotiating.

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Abiel Banjo: We want this, we want this, we want you to include this, we want you to pay for the patient to come into our clinic.

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Abiel Banjo: We have to go back to the drawing board, see what is acceptable by IRB or regulations.

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Abiel Banjo: We have to come back.

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Abiel Banjo: Okay, yeah, now we move past the budget.

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Abiel Banjo: We move to what we call working through site initiation visits, site pre-study selection visits.

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Abiel Banjo: So we hand over to our professional CRAs like son here, and they will say, here you go.

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Abiel Banjo: We have delivered you the package.

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Abiel Banjo: You are good to go.

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Abiel Banjo: It's not as smooth as it is in the US because they also have their regulatory bodies, and we must adhere to their regulations in order to even have anything done there.

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Abiel Banjo: And I have to monitor that from the beginning.

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Abiel Banjo: And in everything first, I have to note down every piece of information.

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Abiel Banjo: In this industry, if you don't document, it will never happen.

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Abiel Banjo: So every single detail goes along with it for you.

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Amy Hutto: It sounds like a lot of spreadsheets.

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Amy Hutto: So, Shone, when he hands you those spreadsheets, what happens next?

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Shone Williams: So, right, so as a clinical research monitor, I take that information, how many patients just enrolled into the clinical trial, where the locations are, and then we're assigned to go to certain regions.

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Shone Williams: So like I'm a West Coast CRA.

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Shone Williams: I go to the doctor's facility, and let's just say they may have 10 patients in the study.

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Shone Williams: It is my obligation and due diligence to review the patient's history in their medical chart to make sure that accurately they have enrolled into the clinical trial by inclusion and exclusion criteria.

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Shone Williams: So based on the inclusion criteria that they are fit for that trial, and if it's exclusionary, they have some type of exclusionary issue or something that means that they cannot participate.

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Shone Williams: The reason why I'm mentioning inclusion and exclusion because let's go back to 1932 when we had the infamous Schengen symptoms trial.

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Shone Williams: Clearly, they were not using inclusion and exclusion criteria to monitor or to make sure that the patients that they were seeing were getting proper care.

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Shone Williams: So as a monitor, I think that is very critical.

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Shone Williams: What we do is to ensure that that doesn't happen again and that we are really clear as to looking at the data based on their information, their patient charts, if they fit the bill.

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Shone Williams: And they can participate in the clinical trial.

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Shone Williams: So that's one level of it.

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Shone Williams: And then to ensure that the patients are fully aware of what they're participating in, which is called an informed consent.

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Amy Hutto: So it sounds like you guys conquer a lot of red tape, which most people would not necessarily choose to do.

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Amy Hutto: And you're working with populations that may not have trust in the system.

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Amy Hutto: So you've got this huge mountain to climb.

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Amy Hutto: What made you want to start this business?

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Shone Williams: That's exactly what I just mentioned about the Tuskegee trial.

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Shone Williams: I mean, that trial lasted about 40 years.

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Shone Williams: So you can imagine the distrust that's built in the community as far as people of color.

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Shone Williams: And we feel it is our obligation to say, hey, we need to step up and let our communities know that it is very and highly critical that if they are suffering from some type of disease, that there are alternate treatments out there that can help them.

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Shone Williams: And not only that they can help them, that we will be able to, based off of what we've been through, what we've monitored our extensive 25 to 35 years experience, to be able to look and say with any sponsor, with any device company or any authorities that we work for, that we say, hey, this is okay and this is not okay.

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Shone Williams: This will help build trust and this will continue with the lack of trust.

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Shone Williams: So when I was saying about the 40 years, that's like ingrained in the community's head.

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Shone Williams: And we want to say, for example, let's just use diabetes.

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Shone Williams: It is true genetically that color, skin, drug factors, absorptions, all of that is different in each race.

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Shone Williams: So if we don't have enough color people in our clinical trials, then we will not be able to really look at the effects of what these medications that they go to the hospital and take.

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Shone Williams: They don't know, we don't know how they're affecting them really, because we don't have enough data.

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Shone Williams: And that's just an example.

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Shone Williams: And it may not be diabetes, it may be something else, but we want to have more participation for the general health of us all.

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Shone Williams: They are participating to help secure and make sure that the medicine is safe and effective for their race as well.

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Amy Hutto: Participation is going to give you that representation.

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Abiel Banjo: Representation is not only lacking in terms of participation of patients in research, representation is also lacking in the area of people working, people of color in the industry.

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Abiel Banjo: It's very, very sparse.

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Abiel Banjo: Like, I can be on a team and I can tell you I'm probably the only person of color on the team.

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Abiel Banjo: And hey, I'm proud.

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Abiel Banjo: I'm very happy.

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Abiel Banjo: It makes me proud to be privileged.

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Abiel Banjo: I see it as a privilege, but we need to educate people.

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Abiel Banjo: And that's what led to this.

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Abiel Banjo: As I believe I've shared this with Shone and our partner Elizabeth, that I didn't know how divided my family was until COVID-19 happened.

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Abiel Banjo: There were people that wouldn't take the side.

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Abiel Banjo: I was the manager.

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Abiel Banjo: I see the data.

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Abiel Banjo: I was like, hello, I'm your son.

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Abiel Banjo: I'm your brother.

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Abiel Banjo: Will you think I'm lying to you?

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Abiel Banjo: Take them to the side.

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Abiel Banjo: What are you talking about?

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Abiel Banjo: This is an unprecedented situation.

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Abiel Banjo: We don't understand it.

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Abiel Banjo: We don't know nothing about it.

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Abiel Banjo: We need to be safe.

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Abiel Banjo: We need to be safe.

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Abiel Banjo: This is what I was telling my family.

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Abiel Banjo: But I learned how divided we are because of the hurt, what they have learned before, what endowments think in their mind.

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Abiel Banjo: So...

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Amy Hutto: So I'm imagining that you both have quite the CV.

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Amy Hutto: If we look back in time and set of experiences, what let you know it was time to step out into this clinical research organization and be a team of three?

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Abiel Banjo: Well, for me, I think that the privilege, again, I say I'm privileged.

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Abiel Banjo: They had this cooking, this idea was cooking between them before.

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Abiel Banjo: The idea was cooking within me initially, but I was like, it's just an idea, it will fade away.

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Abiel Banjo: And they allowed this idea to be birthed within me because they came to me.

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Abiel Banjo: And I was like, wow, I've been thinking about this when I fell on the inadequate as an individual.

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Abiel Banjo: We're going to be coming together as a force to reckon with, because collective idea, if I will say again, these women, they are our house.

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Abiel Banjo: You just don't understand.

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Abiel Banjo: This is why I say I'm privileged.

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Abiel Banjo: They come with great minds, like they kick me on my toes too.

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Abiel Banjo: And we have a common ground with our experiences, even in different companies.

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Abiel Banjo: We see the same thing, which makes us to say, okay, every time we have what we call a CRO, Contract Research Organization, works with sponsors and biotechs.

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Abiel Banjo: Whatever the biotech says, they do run it.

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Abiel Banjo: No, you need to have an ethical standard.

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Abiel Banjo: It's not about money.

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Abiel Banjo: It's not about money.

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Abiel Banjo: You need to have an ethical standard in a way that they will still respect you.

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Abiel Banjo: Then we've all experienced that in individual companies, where we have worked individually, where we have worked together.

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Abiel Banjo: We have experienced that and we was like, OK, yeah, it's time to be different.

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Abiel Banjo: And that's what gave birth to Divergent.

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Abiel Banjo: It's in the definition of a company.

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Abiel Banjo: To dare to be different.

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Abiel Banjo: We want to be different.

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Abiel Banjo: We want to be easily distinguished as a company.

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Abiel Banjo: And this is why we also created the program that fosters training people of color, bringing about people, doctors, that may be interested.

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Abiel Banjo: A lot of us, we meet doctors and they don't even know they can work in clinical research.

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Abiel Banjo: They have no idea.

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Abiel Banjo: But they've been doctors for a long time.

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Abiel Banjo: They have no idea they can be involved because they are not exposed to the information.

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Shone Williams: For me, I can't wait to one day that you can have Dr.

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Shone Williams: Jackson on.

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Shone Williams: She was my manager.

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Shone Williams: And I watched her, the way that she handles everyone.

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Shone Williams: It was, I think, a team of 15 CRAs.

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Shone Williams: And she was very fair.

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Shone Williams: She listened to all of our concerns.

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Shone Williams: She called.

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Shone Williams: She'll call you after hours.

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Shone Williams: If there was an issue, she's like, what's the problem?

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Shone Williams: Let's talk about it.

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Shone Williams: I have to say, in my 25 years, I've never experienced that ever, ever in the industry.

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Shone Williams: So just the genuine concern and wanting to help and figure out things for your mental health.

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Shone Williams: She's all about your mental health.

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Shone Williams: And that's another thing that being literally the minority in the industries.

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Shone Williams: And I just set it out the blue.

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Shone Williams: I said, you know, maybe one day we can have a business together.

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Shone Williams: And then she's like, she said, my father always said to me, you have to have your own business.

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Shone Williams: And then month by month, as I watched her, stay consistent, be the person as she was and never wavered on her integrity.

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Shone Williams: I said, let's do this.

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Amy Hutto: It's amazing.

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Amy Hutto: Now I want to meet her.

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Amy Hutto: You had that conversation.

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Amy Hutto: You've got these people pulling this out of you.

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Amy Hutto: How did you guys know it was time to make a leap?

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Abiel Banjo: I would say it was divine.

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Abiel Banjo: We started having what we call board meetings and ideas were flowing.

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Abiel Banjo: And I think all three of us were like, we have the mentality of write the vision, make it plain, run with it.

00:18:08.023 --> 00:18:14.763

Abiel Banjo: There is no need to write in the vision and leave it there, because it won't bring yourself into life.

00:18:14.763 --> 00:18:15.843

Abiel Banjo: It will just remain.

00:18:15.863 --> 00:18:18.683

Abiel Banjo: So we were just like, hey, what are we waiting for?

00:18:19.363 --> 00:18:21.183

Abiel Banjo: It's time for us to get started.

00:18:21.203 --> 00:18:27.783

Abiel Banjo: There is a timetable, and this woman here that is here right now, she holds us to the time.

00:18:28.423 --> 00:18:39.723

Abiel Banjo: We were excited, you know, we built the website, we started reaching out to sponsors or biotechs and just advertising ourselves, creating different things to build connections.

00:18:39.903 --> 00:18:44.203

Abiel Banjo: There is no perfect time, but it's the time that you create.

00:18:44.423 --> 00:18:50.983

Abiel Banjo: And I think the time is now for all of us to stand our ground and do what we believe in.

00:18:51.003 --> 00:18:54.383

Abiel Banjo: Information you have and you don't share, it will die with you.

00:18:55.123 --> 00:19:02.723

Amy Hutto: So, Shone, hearing that you were so eager to start, let me ask you, what is it you love most about it now that you're doing this work?

00:19:03.003 --> 00:19:07.303

Shone Williams: You know, I've always had a passion to do clinical research.

00:19:08.823 --> 00:19:09.843

Shone Williams: Well, okay.

00:19:10.003 --> 00:19:12.363

Shone Williams: Let me, let me retract that story.

00:19:12.383 --> 00:19:14.803

Shone Williams: Because that's not the truth.

00:19:14.823 --> 00:19:17.103

Shone Williams: Let me, I'll just give a little story.

00:19:17.963 --> 00:19:19.503

Shone Williams: I wanted to be a pediatrician.

00:19:20.543 --> 00:19:22.263

Shone Williams: And I was in high school.

00:19:22.283 --> 00:19:23.943

Shone Williams: I was in the health academy.

00:19:24.063 --> 00:19:25.483

Shone Williams: I did everything they told me.

00:19:25.683 --> 00:19:28.763

Shone Williams: I dotted my I's, crossed my T's, got into college.

00:19:29.143 --> 00:19:44.223

Shone Williams: And then once I graduated from college, so I left California and went to a HBCU Howard to practice or to learn these skills to hopefully be able to become a candidate in the medical school.

00:19:45.203 --> 00:19:50.403

Shone Williams: And I think I was there for a week of prep, and then they said, okay, we're going to take you into the lab.

00:19:50.723 --> 00:19:52.603

Shone Williams: Still, I had this burning excitement.

00:19:52.723 --> 00:19:57.703

Shone Williams: They marched us to the lab, and then we got to our table, and they unveiled the cadaver.

00:19:59.083 --> 00:20:00.423

Shone Williams: I can't tell you what happened after that.

00:20:00.823 --> 00:20:02.263

Shone Williams: I can't.

00:20:02.823 --> 00:20:05.183

Shone Williams: I cannot tell you what happened.

00:20:05.423 --> 00:20:12.463

Shone Williams: But what I can tell you is that when I woke up, I was like, this is not for me at all.

00:20:13.263 --> 00:20:18.183

Shone Williams: So just like Abiel, we had to find clinical research by accident.

00:20:18.363 --> 00:20:24.623

Shone Williams: So what happened is I got a ticket from the academic dean or whomever that brought me to the program.

00:20:24.643 --> 00:20:28.063

Shone Williams: They nicely handed me a ticket to get back on the airplane to California.

00:20:28.303 --> 00:20:30.863

Shone Williams: And I was like, okay, so what am I gonna do?

00:20:31.243 --> 00:20:32.763

Shone Williams: I have no idea.

00:20:32.803 --> 00:20:38.523

Shone Williams: But then I got a job at a biotech right here in my in my own backyard.

00:20:38.903 --> 00:20:41.503

Shone Williams: And I worked in the medical records department.

00:20:41.543 --> 00:20:48.563

Shone Williams: And I start seeing these lively young men and women, I have to say, they were all white.

00:20:49.283 --> 00:20:52.303

Shone Williams: But I still asked the question, what do you do?

00:20:52.883 --> 00:20:54.323

Shone Williams: And they said, I'm a CRA.

00:20:54.543 --> 00:20:55.723

Shone Williams: Okay, what's a CRA?

00:20:55.863 --> 00:20:57.483

Shone Williams: A clinical research associate.

00:20:57.823 --> 00:21:00.283

Shone Williams: What does clinical research associates do?

00:21:00.623 --> 00:21:03.323

Shone Williams: And they explained it as I've explained it earlier.

00:21:03.503 --> 00:21:06.543

Shone Williams: And I sat there and said, I can do that.

00:21:07.343 --> 00:21:07.963

Shone Williams: Why not?

00:21:08.763 --> 00:21:12.303

Shone Williams: After that, I found out what it really takes and what it is.

00:21:12.323 --> 00:21:15.103

Shone Williams: I was like, wow, I can help patients.

00:21:15.323 --> 00:21:19.063

Shone Williams: I can really contribute to what I love to do.

00:21:19.583 --> 00:21:21.643

Shone Williams: And all I have to do is work with paper.

00:21:22.383 --> 00:21:24.063

Shone Williams: I don't have to work with patients.

00:21:25.243 --> 00:21:25.863

Shone Williams: There you go.

00:21:25.883 --> 00:21:27.663

Shone Williams: That's what I had the passion.

00:21:27.683 --> 00:21:29.023

Shone Williams: I always had it in me.

00:21:29.183 --> 00:21:34.023

Shone Williams: And then I found an alternate way that I can really have an effect and help patients.

00:21:34.923 --> 00:21:39.343

Amy Hutto: I love that you got closer to both what you wanted to do, but also your true self.

00:21:39.603 --> 00:21:41.443

Shone Williams: Yes, yes.

00:21:41.463 --> 00:21:47.703

Amy Hutto: So that also reminds me of something Abiel said earlier about how much access matters.

00:21:48.563 --> 00:21:52.963

Amy Hutto: And you were saying that you had to be brave enough to ask these people, hey, what do you do?

00:21:53.063 --> 00:21:56.203

Amy Hutto: And if you hadn't seen them do that job, you wouldn't have known about it.

00:21:56.743 --> 00:21:57.223

Shone Williams: Correct.

00:21:57.243 --> 00:22:00.143

Amy Hutto: And that access and exposure is just so important.

00:22:00.803 --> 00:22:11.043

Amy Hutto: So with that line, Abiel, what is the one thing you wish you could get people to understand about clinical trials or clinical research?

00:22:11.543 --> 00:22:17.363

Abiel Banjo: Well, first and foremost, to change the narrative maybe that some people have.

00:22:18.283 --> 00:22:28.723

Abiel Banjo: Again, if I may go back to the family aspect, there are a lot of people still in my family that are still troubled about having their children vaccinated and things like that.

00:22:28.743 --> 00:22:32.263

Abiel Banjo: So when children are born, they decide to not have that.

00:22:32.403 --> 00:22:42.243

Abiel Banjo: And I had an argument like when we grew up in Nigeria and I came here young, but I was like, we have that home.

00:22:42.763 --> 00:22:44.063

Abiel Banjo: It's not different here.

00:22:44.303 --> 00:22:57.483

Abiel Banjo: So I don't understand why, but there are narratives out there that certain vaccine may cause things in the life of children, but I was still trying to educate people even within my family.

00:22:58.003 --> 00:23:04.923

Abiel Banjo: My perspective is, if my family is going through it, I use that to mirror the world.

00:23:05.483 --> 00:23:09.163

Abiel Banjo: how many people out there have the same mindset.

00:23:09.723 --> 00:23:12.523

Abiel Banjo: I just want people to be more open-minded.

00:23:12.843 --> 00:23:19.443

Abiel Banjo: And I think that the more they see representation, the more they may appreciate clinical research.

00:23:19.703 --> 00:23:29.283

Abiel Banjo: And that is what we try to do with Divergent CRO so they can work with us, educating others, give them more information.

00:23:29.303 --> 00:23:37.763

Abiel Banjo: As Shone just said, it's because my grandmother was here, she had Alzheimer's, and she was totally different.

00:23:37.903 --> 00:23:39.343

Abiel Banjo: She thought I was a maid.

00:23:39.863 --> 00:23:42.463

Abiel Banjo: They gave her diets that she needed to eat.

00:23:42.663 --> 00:23:47.523

Abiel Banjo: And she didn't want that oatmeal or raisin bran cereal.

00:23:47.543 --> 00:23:50.863

Abiel Banjo: She wanted some, I don't know if you ever heard food food.

00:23:51.503 --> 00:23:56.103

Abiel Banjo: That's what she wanted, but she couldn't eat such food at this time.

00:23:56.383 --> 00:24:01.363

Abiel Banjo: So she said to my parents, that made you high end for me.

00:24:01.383 --> 00:24:02.743

Abiel Banjo: You eat so bad.

00:24:02.823 --> 00:24:03.863

Abiel Banjo: And I cry.

00:24:04.143 --> 00:24:07.183

Abiel Banjo: I cry because she loved me the most.

00:24:07.583 --> 00:24:09.023

Abiel Banjo: And I loved her right back.

00:24:09.243 --> 00:24:10.583

Abiel Banjo: And that pushed me.

00:24:10.603 --> 00:24:13.223

Abiel Banjo: That captivated my heart to want to follow research.

00:24:13.343 --> 00:24:16.363

Abiel Banjo: So I started volunteering at my alma mater.

00:24:16.723 --> 00:24:20.483

Abiel Banjo: I was just calling patients for them that may be interested in the study.

00:24:21.703 --> 00:24:30.663

Abiel Banjo: And all of a sudden, as someone came through, just as son spoke to, son was like, oh, you are the one helping to drive their recruitment.

00:24:30.683 --> 00:24:31.343

Abiel Banjo: You were calling.

00:24:31.743 --> 00:24:33.023

Abiel Banjo: I said, I was just calling.

00:24:33.063 --> 00:24:33.903

Abiel Banjo: And he said, yes.

00:24:34.063 --> 00:24:36.603

Abiel Banjo: He was like, there is a position called CTA.

00:24:36.883 --> 00:24:38.003

Abiel Banjo: I'd like for you to try.

00:24:38.103 --> 00:24:39.683

Abiel Banjo: He just took a resume from me.

00:24:39.843 --> 00:24:40.743

Abiel Banjo: He submitted it.

00:24:40.983 --> 00:24:41.723

Abiel Banjo: And that was it.

00:24:42.643 --> 00:24:47.183

Abiel Banjo: Well, I knew nothing about clinical research or I could work in there.

00:24:47.203 --> 00:24:49.863

Abiel Banjo: I also had my plan to become a psychiatrist.

00:24:50.903 --> 00:24:54.223

Abiel Banjo: I was saying, like, I'm going to nail this for my grandma.

00:24:54.243 --> 00:24:56.163

Abiel Banjo: Grandma, forgive me wherever you are.

00:24:57.043 --> 00:25:06.383

Amy Hutto: What is the challenge that you two find yourself up against in the market space you're in when running a clinical research organization?

00:25:08.323 --> 00:25:08.843

Shone Williams: So...

00:25:10.923 --> 00:25:24.463

Shone Williams: I believe that we're up against and it's just clear, the wide range of lack of awareness, as well as mistrust in the industry itself.

00:25:26.143 --> 00:25:33.663

Abiel Banjo: Yeah, so I believe that some challenges that we may face also come around competition.

00:25:33.683 --> 00:25:42.963

Abiel Banjo: you have general competition, meaning organization to organization in the same space, which is normal.

00:25:43.403 --> 00:25:45.803

Abiel Banjo: Then you have competition of trials.

00:25:46.543 --> 00:25:51.003

Abiel Banjo: A sponsor or biotech contracts us to deliver.

00:25:51.643 --> 00:26:03.663

Abiel Banjo: Now, there may be a challenge with recruiting potential patients for the trial because there are multiple trials within the same therapeutic area, within the same area.

00:26:03.723 --> 00:26:08.643

Abiel Banjo: So sometimes when you see a doctor that cannot recruit, that's a huge challenge.

00:26:08.663 --> 00:26:11.043

Abiel Banjo: It's not just on the study, mind you.

00:26:11.063 --> 00:26:18.183

Abiel Banjo: The doctor, they sign a contract with you saying, I cannot have another trial.

00:26:19.003 --> 00:26:21.023

Abiel Banjo: That is the same thing as yours.

00:26:21.203 --> 00:26:28.323

Abiel Banjo: So you can have a study with them that is about diabetes, and another sponsor comes to them, oh, we have this.

00:26:28.523 --> 00:26:30.063

Abiel Banjo: They're like, yeah, we can take it.

00:26:30.943 --> 00:26:31.723

Abiel Banjo: We can take it.

00:26:33.223 --> 00:26:41.083

Abiel Banjo: Whenever they are recruiting, they decide to put the patient in the other trial rather than yours, you have no time with them.

00:26:41.423 --> 00:26:55.863

Abiel Banjo: So some of the challenges come with that competition and recruitment of patients, either because of lack of exposure or information, and some other thing is that specifically on that information aspect.

00:26:56.423 --> 00:27:04.983

Abiel Banjo: It's people that have the right type of insurance can go to a doctor that can give them exposure to clinical training.

00:27:05.763 --> 00:27:19.923

Abiel Banjo: If someone is having economic restraint, they can't even bring insurance, they can't even see doctor, they can't even drive themselves to the doctor and let them get the information that there are possible clinical trials out there.

00:27:20.123 --> 00:27:33.603

Abiel Banjo: So they have limiting factor that is standing against them that social economic standards that's also standing as a challenge that can impact potential recruitment into the trial.

00:27:33.623 --> 00:27:38.123

Abiel Banjo: So those are some of the common things that happen to us in the industry.

00:27:38.683 --> 00:27:50.843

Amy Hutto: Knowing that you face this history and this mistrust and then all of these challenges from other organizations and just keeping patients enrolled and doing all the things you need to do to see it through to this long end.

00:27:52.163 --> 00:27:54.883

Amy Hutto: What's the thing that lets you fall back in love with your work?

00:27:55.903 --> 00:27:57.143

Amy Hutto: Even after the darkest day.

00:27:57.783 --> 00:28:01.963

Shone Williams: I think I can answer that with some big words.

00:28:02.323 --> 00:28:19.983

Shone Williams: What makes me fall in love is seeing and this is since I've been doing oncology for over 15 to 20 years and the reason why I stay in that space is as I said, you see the patient's quality of life is extended as well as their health.

00:28:20.083 --> 00:28:40.863

Shone Williams: So what makes me at the end of the day when I lay my head on a pillow, I'm thinking, wow, that patient improved so that means he or she can now be able to have another day to be with their family, another day to have an experience that they always dreamed of.

00:28:40.863 --> 00:28:53.323

Shone Williams: Because you know, I know for myself, I don't want to lay my head down for that final resting time and say that I had all these dreams, I wanted to do all this and never did accomplish anything.

00:28:53.523 --> 00:29:02.803

Shone Williams: So I feel that when I see patients come in, they get the treatment, and they can have that for themselves, I feel good.

00:29:03.063 --> 00:29:13.563

Shone Williams: It really makes my heart sing of joy knowing that, first of all, that they got treated safely, and secondly, they were able to have that another day.

00:29:14.443 --> 00:29:21.723

Abiel Banjo: As for me, my fall back goes back to, again, my grandmother, the inspiration of what is being done for Alzheimer's.

00:29:22.283 --> 00:29:23.123

Abiel Banjo: I'm a believer.

00:29:23.303 --> 00:29:34.443

Abiel Banjo: It may sound some type of, not controversial, but it may sound somehow to people, but I believe that there's fear for everything that we just haven't discovered it yet.

00:29:34.663 --> 00:29:41.783

Abiel Banjo: And I'm saying, how long does humans have civilization that we can discover certain things?

00:29:42.263 --> 00:29:49.443

Abiel Banjo: Anything that is caused by what you ingest should have a solution, because you somehow put it there.

00:29:49.943 --> 00:29:55.683

Abiel Banjo: The way our body is originally made or manufactured is meant to heal itself.

00:29:56.003 --> 00:29:59.303

Abiel Banjo: We poison our body, and it's causing all these problems.

00:29:59.323 --> 00:30:01.743

Abiel Banjo: So we should be able to find a solution.

00:30:02.063 --> 00:30:03.883

Abiel Banjo: That's always my mindset.

00:30:04.003 --> 00:30:08.543

Abiel Banjo: Whenever I'm on a study, I've been privileged to work on breast cancer, but it was minute.

00:30:08.943 --> 00:30:12.863

Abiel Banjo: But most of my work focused on CNS, central nervous system.

00:30:13.083 --> 00:30:17.003

Abiel Banjo: Only thing that has to do with neurology, I just went in that area because of my grandmother.

00:30:17.003 --> 00:30:27.783

Abiel Banjo: Highlight of my career that I will say was when I was privileged to work on the COVID trial, because I felt that the world, including my family, was waiting for a solution.

00:30:28.623 --> 00:30:32.763

Abiel Banjo: I didn't mind staying up till midnight because I was a manager.

00:30:33.723 --> 00:30:36.003

Abiel Banjo: We need the biological licensing.

00:30:36.223 --> 00:30:37.603

Abiel Banjo: We need to review data.

00:30:37.623 --> 00:30:38.943

Abiel Banjo: We need to do analysis.

00:30:39.163 --> 00:30:40.843

Abiel Banjo: I was put in an overtime.

00:30:40.863 --> 00:30:52.863

Abiel Banjo: Before that, I didn't want to be the sponsor, but if I said I didn't want to be the farmer, but if I say the most popular, that's saying, for heaven, you know what I'm talking about.

00:30:53.083 --> 00:31:01.843

Abiel Banjo: Just being behind the scene and going to bed every day knowing we are working on a solution to the over, we don't need accolades.

00:31:01.843 --> 00:31:03.043

Abiel Banjo: We don't need tapes.

00:31:03.703 --> 00:31:17.703

Abiel Banjo: Just being behind the scene, working on something that will provide a way out for other people, just knowing that someone will be able to benefit from this joy every time.

00:31:18.443 --> 00:31:22.243

Amy Hutto: And if I had to sum both of you up in one sentence, I'd say you both believe in hope.

00:31:22.983 --> 00:31:24.263

Abiel Banjo: Oh, absolutely.

00:31:24.563 --> 00:31:25.283

Shone Williams: Absolutely.

00:31:26.723 --> 00:31:30.863

Amy Hutto: Who is it that Divergent wishes they could reach?

00:31:30.883 --> 00:31:34.343

Shone Williams: It was absolutely for me, there's no biases for any.

00:31:34.443 --> 00:31:41.483

Shone Williams: I mean, the clinical trials have every race or color we initiate to have them in our clinical trials.

00:31:41.483 --> 00:31:47.403

Shone Williams: So everyone that can be reached and benefit from the clinical trial.

00:31:47.523 --> 00:32:03.343

Shone Williams: The perspective for me is everyone for people of color, because of the lack of awareness, just needs to be extended and put out there so they can also be a part of the progress that's happening out there with new treatments.

00:32:03.883 --> 00:32:09.403

Shone Williams: But of course, clinical trials are designed to not be biased.

00:32:09.763 --> 00:32:18.983

Shone Williams: However, when you're not able to recruit different races, then it can become biased to an extent.

00:32:19.443 --> 00:32:26.263

Shone Williams: So I hope to know that doing this great work in clinical research that we're finding solutions to help everybody.

00:32:26.943 --> 00:32:27.643

Abiel Banjo: Absolutely.

00:32:27.883 --> 00:32:28.703

Abiel Banjo: And I agree.

00:32:29.003 --> 00:32:32.903

Abiel Banjo: I think there's a lot of misguided information out there.

00:32:33.003 --> 00:32:38.963

Abiel Banjo: And the only way to expose false information is to drown it with the truth.

00:32:39.163 --> 00:32:41.743

Abiel Banjo: And we need to spread the truth the more.

00:32:42.243 --> 00:32:44.783

Abiel Banjo: We need to educate people the more.

00:32:45.103 --> 00:32:47.243

Abiel Banjo: We need to try to change the narrative.

00:32:47.303 --> 00:33:19.343

Abiel Banjo: And this is why, you know, we're using all the platforms that we have, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok, as much as possible to share whatever we can share to show people the results that, you know, even if it's just testimonials of people that their life has been extended as a result of clinical trial, that someone volunteer in order for you to be able to receive this drug to extend your life, or ever more to spend time with your family.

00:33:19.443 --> 00:33:24.383

Abiel Banjo: We just need to be able to change that narrative because it's causing a lot of people their lives.

00:33:24.603 --> 00:33:29.703

Abiel Banjo: I know people that will deny clinical trial and just say, oh, I don't want any other option.

00:33:30.103 --> 00:33:32.183

Abiel Banjo: If they tell me that's it, then that's it.

00:33:32.423 --> 00:33:34.103

Abiel Banjo: I don't want to go to the clinical trial.

00:33:34.323 --> 00:33:39.123

Abiel Banjo: It's something tough for someone to say because of misguided information.

00:33:39.463 --> 00:33:41.443

Abiel Banjo: So we want to reach everyone.

00:33:41.523 --> 00:33:45.963

Abiel Banjo: We want to be able to make impact on everyone and hopefully change their mind.

00:33:46.243 --> 00:33:52.343

Shone Williams: What came to my mind is that I'm not going to sit here and say, there's a term called adverse events.

00:33:52.563 --> 00:33:53.003

Abiel Banjo: Yes.

00:33:53.863 --> 00:33:55.523

Shone Williams: There are going to be adverse events.

00:33:55.543 --> 00:34:01.263

Shone Williams: There's going to be something that doesn't work well, not a person that's going to get in an, oh, they're safe.

00:34:01.303 --> 00:34:02.823

Shone Williams: But let's just think of it like this.

00:34:03.243 --> 00:34:10.983

Shone Williams: When you wake up and you go out that door and you get in your car, is it on your mind that I can potentially get into a car wreck?

00:34:11.183 --> 00:34:13.083

Shone Williams: Am I going to, is somebody going to hit me?

00:34:13.803 --> 00:34:22.623

Shone Williams: You, I feel that you should not live your life in fear that there's going to be things that does happen.

00:34:22.883 --> 00:34:40.943

Shone Williams: But at the same time, knowing that if the clinical trial is set up correctly, you have people out there who are looking out for you as an advocate to make sure that every step of that process is a good process minus the potential adverse events and things that happen.

00:34:41.683 --> 00:34:45.403

Shone Williams: That, that's what's important because anything can happen to us.

00:34:45.603 --> 00:34:46.023

Shone Williams: Anything.

00:34:46.183 --> 00:35:01.383

Shone Williams: They said that you get on an airplane, I'm trying to quote it right, that it's safer than when you get out there and drive, because there's times that you can get into an accident just being out on the road, but you don't, well, I don't, constantly in my head saying something can happen.

00:35:01.823 --> 00:35:04.763

Shone Williams: You know, I'm going to get out there and I have to do what I need to do.

00:35:04.763 --> 00:35:06.103

Shone Williams: So let's just think, I'm sick.

00:35:06.543 --> 00:35:14.763

Shone Williams: There might be a potential clinical trial out there that can save my life, or there might be the clinical trial can save other people lives.

00:35:15.023 --> 00:35:23.983

Shone Williams: There's ways to look at it, but the summary of it all is that we're here to help and be a beacon of light for our communities.

00:35:24.623 --> 00:35:27.063

Abiel Banjo: I love, love, love that she brought that up.

00:35:27.183 --> 00:35:38.283

Abiel Banjo: Part of the safeguard that we are to educate people more on, we have what you call suspected adverse event or adverse reaction.

00:35:38.983 --> 00:35:44.383

Abiel Banjo: These are things that they already noted as to possibly happening.

00:35:45.183 --> 00:35:55.263

Abiel Banjo: When we are talking about other adverse event, especially sometime with vaccine, you may have fatigue, rash, swelling, those are normal things that just happen.

00:35:55.263 --> 00:36:02.343

Abiel Banjo: No matter the vaccine, for safeguards, we have safeguards in place to make people more comfortable there.

00:36:02.563 --> 00:36:08.103

Abiel Banjo: If you already have pre-existing condition, that's another thing.

00:36:08.443 --> 00:36:12.963

Abiel Banjo: Same with your pre-existing condition may lead to something else.

00:36:13.023 --> 00:36:19.763

Abiel Banjo: It's not necessarily the fault of the vaccine, but you already have a condition, and you are seeking treatment.

00:36:20.223 --> 00:36:22.863

Abiel Banjo: Maybe enhance what you had already.

00:36:23.203 --> 00:36:39.063

Abiel Banjo: Sometimes we see drugs, investigation of product, have unsuspected adverse reaction, meaning you took a medicine, and it made you lose 10 pounds, and you're like, oh wow, but that was not the intensive.

00:36:39.103 --> 00:36:39.923

Abiel Banjo: And it worked.

00:36:39.983 --> 00:36:42.383

Abiel Banjo: So these types of things are possible.

00:36:42.823 --> 00:36:50.263

Abiel Banjo: Even when you discover them, they record it as something that can happen, has the potential for using the drug.

00:36:50.543 --> 00:36:53.843

Abiel Banjo: And to let you know, this is the adverse reaction.

00:36:54.063 --> 00:36:56.283

Abiel Banjo: This is what we've not learned so far.

00:36:56.983 --> 00:37:00.023

Abiel Banjo: Whatever we have not discovered, then it's considered brand new.

00:37:00.703 --> 00:37:03.483

Abiel Banjo: Small safeguard now than before.

00:37:03.543 --> 00:37:06.143

Abiel Banjo: You are not just giving the drugs.

00:37:06.503 --> 00:37:09.703

Abiel Banjo: There is something called double blinded randomization.

00:37:10.663 --> 00:37:14.603

Abiel Banjo: They have no idea what you're receiving, placebo or the drug.

00:37:14.823 --> 00:37:15.843

Abiel Banjo: They have no idea.

00:37:16.323 --> 00:37:21.363

Abiel Banjo: Which is why someone can go and tell, oh, I have a headache when I took it.

00:37:21.623 --> 00:37:24.723

Abiel Banjo: Okay, the person that took the sugar pill also had a headache.

00:37:25.163 --> 00:37:28.603

Abiel Banjo: Their mind is telling them they had a headache, but they took the sugar pill.

00:37:28.863 --> 00:37:45.263

Abiel Banjo: If they're telling you they had a headache because of the drug, but the study knows they took the placebo, if they're calculating all the data, they are able to say, okay, so 30 people that were on the sugar pill said they had a headache.

00:37:45.523 --> 00:37:46.383

Abiel Banjo: It was sugar.

00:37:46.983 --> 00:37:49.023

Abiel Banjo: It has nothing to do with the drug.

00:37:49.223 --> 00:37:53.823

Abiel Banjo: They're able to analyze the data that, okay, your mind sometimes can play tricks on you.

00:37:53.843 --> 00:37:58.903

Abiel Banjo: Have you ever taken something and you told yourself you're feeling better and you jump off the bed?

00:37:59.483 --> 00:38:00.583

Abiel Banjo: That is your mind.

00:38:00.783 --> 00:38:02.503

Abiel Banjo: It's not necessarily the drug.

00:38:02.523 --> 00:38:07.243

Abiel Banjo: You told yourself and your body began to heal itself and you got up.

00:38:07.563 --> 00:38:09.463

Abiel Banjo: And I want people to also think that.

00:38:09.643 --> 00:38:18.943

Abiel Banjo: I have people in my family that have died of cancer because the moment they told them about it, their mind shut down.

00:38:20.043 --> 00:38:24.523

Abiel Banjo: Even though we try to support them, they accept the defeat right here.

00:38:24.543 --> 00:38:29.763

Abiel Banjo: And when your mind shut down, your body shut down because this is the control system.

00:38:29.883 --> 00:38:40.083

Abiel Banjo: If you tell yourself, I can beat it, you will beat it with the treatment that they will give you and the hand of the creator that manufactures your body.

00:38:40.463 --> 00:38:45.583

Abiel Banjo: It will work too to make everything work together and you will still be sustained and come back.

00:38:45.603 --> 00:38:53.143

Abiel Banjo: But the moment you accept the defeat in your mind, the whole body becomes weak and it begins to shut down.

00:38:53.383 --> 00:38:59.863

Abiel Banjo: It may not accept the treatment, it will just deteriorate because you're telling your body to power itself down.

00:38:59.883 --> 00:39:02.283

Amy Hutto: You have to be open to the opportunity.

00:39:02.423 --> 00:39:02.823

Abiel Banjo: Yes.

00:39:03.523 --> 00:39:20.043

Amy Hutto: So now that you all are in business together with three partners and you have this clinical research organization and you have this real focus on transparency and reaching these populations that may not have been represented before, what's your big takeaway from doing this work?

00:39:20.543 --> 00:39:24.043

Abiel Banjo: My big takeaway is the end result.

00:39:24.103 --> 00:39:25.063

Abiel Banjo: The end result.

00:39:26.323 --> 00:39:29.783

Abiel Banjo: We don't work removed from the patient.

00:39:30.383 --> 00:39:32.863

Abiel Banjo: We want to see the end result.

00:39:32.983 --> 00:39:35.543

Abiel Banjo: This is why we want to be the different, right?

00:39:35.843 --> 00:39:43.123

Abiel Banjo: We want to see those smiley faces that comes from the result of the clinical trial.

00:39:43.223 --> 00:39:55.043

Abiel Banjo: Those families that are able to get that extra years with their family members because a trial that we were able to get through, they were a beneficiary of that trial.

00:39:55.163 --> 00:39:57.623

Abiel Banjo: I think that's what gives the joy to me.

00:39:57.803 --> 00:39:59.823

Abiel Banjo: The benefits of other people.

00:40:00.263 --> 00:40:03.683

Abiel Banjo: Sincerely, I didn't go in it for money.

00:40:03.703 --> 00:40:12.123

Abiel Banjo: I love what I do because the people that are there at the end of it receiving the benefits or in your family, you just never know.

00:40:13.063 --> 00:40:14.763

Abiel Banjo: That's because you've been a part of it.

00:40:15.163 --> 00:40:17.763

Abiel Banjo: You are in a way giving back to your family.

00:40:18.003 --> 00:40:30.003

Abiel Banjo: For me, it's just being able to see people happy, being able to see people that feel like it's the end of the world because of a disease, come to life, say I can live.

00:40:30.683 --> 00:40:41.083

Abiel Banjo: Most of the time when you see people like that, they start to live their life anew because they believe they've been given a second chance, especially when the trial worked for them.

00:40:41.183 --> 00:40:43.303

Abiel Banjo: They lived their life in a good way.

00:40:43.323 --> 00:40:53.643

Abiel Banjo: And that's the type of joy that I want to see in the faces of people that are coming up to experience any drug that we are able to get approval for with the FDA.

00:40:54.483 --> 00:41:01.503

Shone Williams: Amy, I think you summarized it earlier for me and for Abiel as well, that in takeaway is hope.

00:41:02.323 --> 00:41:04.103

Shone Williams: Truly, it is hope.

00:41:04.603 --> 00:41:13.743

Amy Hutto: Well, both for being with me today and having this conversation and patiently explaining for all of our benefits so we can understand exactly what we're talking about.

00:41:14.843 --> 00:41:23.143

Amy Hutto: If someone is interested, if they're wondering if they could be included in something, how do they find out more about what you do?

00:41:24.163 --> 00:41:35.023

Abiel Banjo: We can go to our website, divergentcro.com, or we are also on LinkedIn, on Instagram, TikTok or YouTube as well.

00:41:35.543 --> 00:41:38.423

Abiel Banjo: They are able to reach us through these social media.

00:41:38.703 --> 00:41:41.923

Abiel Banjo: And we have a phone number too that they could call.

00:41:42.263 --> 00:41:45.843

Shone Williams: It's 888-342-1447.

00:41:46.303 --> 00:41:50.623

Shone Williams: We would love to hear from you, anyone out there who is interested in.

00:41:51.123 --> 00:41:55.283

Shone Williams: We have a two options training course for CRAs.

00:41:55.703 --> 00:42:03.183

Shone Williams: One is a fundamentals of CRA, and then the other one is a specialized oncology program for CRAs.

00:42:03.343 --> 00:42:11.163

Shone Williams: So if you check out the website at divergentcro.com, you'll see those training programs and or just give us a call.

00:42:12.423 --> 00:42:13.783

Amy Hutto: Thank you both for being with me today.

00:42:14.083 --> 00:42:14.723

Abiel Banjo: Thank you.

00:42:14.743 --> 00:42:15.723

Abiel Banjo: Thank you for your time.

00:42:22.296 --> 00:42:23.336

Amy Hutto: Thanks for joining us.

00:42:23.676 --> 00:42:27.496

Amy Hutto: If you felt inspired by what you heard today, please subscribe and leave a review.

00:42:27.516 --> 00:42:32.356

Amy Hutto: And if you haven't already, I encourage you to take that first step towards what you feel called to do.

00:42:32.896 --> 00:42:35.656

Amy Hutto: If you need some help gaining clarity on that vision, reach out.

00:42:36.016 --> 00:42:39.876

Amy Hutto: The world needs more people doing the thing they love most, and that includes you.

00:42:39.896 --> 00:42:39.956

Abiel Banjo: Thank you.